AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org. I’m Amy Goodman in Edinburgh, Scotland, with Nermeen Shaikh in New York.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: We’re continuing our conversation with acclaimed Brazilian actor and filmmaker Wagner Moura. At the Edinburgh International Festival, he’s starring in a sequel to a play by Henrik Ibsen titled A Trial — after An Enemy of the People. His Oscar-nominated performance in the film The Secret Agent, set during the Brazilian dictatorship, won him a Golden Globe, as well as the 2025 Cannes Film Festival Award for Best Actor. This is the film’s trailer.

ALEXANDRE: [played by Carlos Francisco] [translated] You really think you should be here?

ARMANDO/MARCELO: [played by Wagner Moura] [translated] I’m taking my son.

JOÃO PEDRO: [played by Marcelo Valle] [translated] It’s foul play at the highest level.

SEBASTIANA: [played by Tânia Maria] [translated] You have to be there very early on Friday morning.

VILMAR: [played by Kaiony Venâncio] [translated] Is that Armando?

ELISÂNGELA: [played by Geane Albuquerque] [translated] No. His name is Marcelo.

VILMAR: Armando. Armando.

ALEXANDRE: [translated] If I was you, I’d get the hell out of here.

We need to protect what we still have. You and my grandson.

HENRIQUE: [played by Luciano Chirolli] [translated] You have no idea who you’re messing with, boy.

SEBASTIANA: [translated] To a better Brazil, with less mischief.

ARMANDO/MARCELO: [translated] This man, I’d kill him with a hammer.

VALDEMAR: [played by Thomás Aquino] [translated] Do you carry a gun?

ARMANDO/MARCELO: [translated] No, but I know how to use a hammer.

AMY GOODMAN: The trailer to The Secret Agent, starring our guest Wagner Moura, who’s joining us here in Edinburgh, Scotland.

It’s so great to have you with us. Thank you for continuing with Part 2 of this conversation. Let’s talk about how The Secret Agent changed the conversation. And for those who haven’t heard, I mean, you were nominated for an Oscar. If you had won — and you were still the first Latin American actor to be nominated for Best Actor. You’ve won numerous awards for this film. Talk about the theme of Secret Agent.

WAGNER MOURA: I think The Secret Agent is a film about someone who decided to stick with his values when everything around him was saying the opposite, which is a very difficult thing. And it’s interesting, Amy, because I think that I was working on both the film, The Secret Agent, and the play at the same time, and I feel that these characters are sort of like connected somehow, Thomas Stockmann and the character I play in The Secret Agent, who —

AMY GOODMAN: How?

WAGNER MOURA: Both men that really stick with what he — with what they believe, right? Like, I think that none of them is a perfect human being, and I love this. You know, like, they’re not heroes. They’re not like normally — the guy that I play in The Secret Agent is not someone, like, that’s trying to overthrow the government or anything. It’s just the effect of authoritarianism in small decisions that people can have in their lives. You know, like, that’s what happens today in places where just to be who you are is a crime. Like, just to be gay can be a problem. To be — to think politically different can be huge problems in some places.

AMY GOODMAN: And for those who aren’t familiar with Brazil, though we talked about it in Part 1 of this discussion, and why, as you explained, you thanked Jair Bolsonaro, currently in prison for his trying to annul the elections, for his authoritarianism in Brazil, how The Secret Agent tells that story or reverberates with it?

WAGNER MOURA: Yeah, it does, because I feel that in the beginning of this film was like — it was sort of like Kleber Mendonça Filho, the director, and I sharing, because we were both very vocal against Bolsonaro when Bolsonaro was in power in Brazil, and we both suffered the consequences of that. It was like many attacks, many. Like, it was — the film that you mentioned, the film that I directed, Marighella, I directed that film in 2017. The film was released in Berlin in 2019. And we could only release the film in Brazil in 2021. Film was censored in Brazil, like cynically censored.

AMY GOODMAN: About an Afro-Brazilian revolutionary — 

WAGNER MOURA: Revolutionary.

AMY GOODMAN: — leader who attempted to overthrow — 

WAGNER MOURA: Who, for Bolsonaro, was a personal enemy, you know. And so, it was hard. And then, I think that The Secret Agent was born from Kleber and I sharing our perplexity over what was going on in Brazil under Bolsonaro, like when the biggest democracy in South America was suddenly becoming — taking a very hard sharp to the far right.

AMY GOODMAN: How did you get your film out, Marighella?

WAGNER MOURA: Fighting. Yeah, with death threats and everything. We just decided to do it. So, we do — there were places that we had to have metal detectors in a cinema. But we couldn’t make a film about Marighella and not fight, you know.

But it was beautiful, because a big part of the population in Brazil embraced the film, understood what was going on, embraced us, and the Black movements, everybody that felt threatened by Bolsonaro, Indigenous people, people from the favelas, LGBTQ communities. It was — it was very beautiful, actually, what happened. We were also screening the film in social movements like MTST, MST, and in places where no one has ever seen a film. And the debates in these places were the best I have ever had in my life about what it is to be a revolutionary, back then in the ’60s and nowadays, which is what they do in in those movements.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: So, Wagner, I’d like to ask you about the fact that, you know, there was your film, Marighella, there was also a film called I’m Still Here, directed by Walter Salles, and now The Secret Agent most recently. Could you explain whether there’s been some kind of resurgence in the interest among Brazilians generally and in the cultural world of what exactly happened during the dictatorship? It seems that this is a new development, I mean, this three films focused entirely in that period, the 1960s and ’70s.

WAGNER MOURA: Yeah. Yeah, of course, the far right and the right in Brazil are very upset about that. Like, their criticism is that, oh, Brazilian cinema thinks that Brazil only started to exist during the dictatorship, which is a very silly accusation.

I think the dictatorship was the most recent and one of the biggest wounds that we have in our history in Brazil. And this happened 50 years ago. It was not long. I was born during the dictatorship. And I see people nowadays, like young generations, different young generations, going, like, “Was there a dictatorship in Brazil? Oh, I didn’t know that,” you know.

And I think that — and again, like, for the way history was told, for me, when I was a boy, about what happened to — we didn’t know anything about people that came from Africa, for example, African history in Brazil, Indigenous, Native Brazilian history in Brazil. So, I think that it’s a role that cinema, art in general, we can take that role, too. We can tell those stories. And I think this is — this is important.

The dictatorship happened 50 years ago, and the scars of the dictatorship are still very, very present in our society. The way police treat people, for example, and the brutality, police brutality, it’s totally connected to what it was during the '60s. So, the dictatorship, slavery — Brazil spent way more time with slavery than without it. Brazil was the last Western country to abolish slavery. So, we have to keep doing films about these things. This is how I think. I think they're important.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: So, Wagner, if you could explain also why you chose — the first film that you directed was on Marighella, based on the life, of course, of the Brazilian revolutionary who led an armed resistance against the military dictatorship in the 1960s. Why did you choose to make a film on him?

WAGNER MOURA: I had — I mean, Marighella is from the same city that I’m from, Salvador, Bahia. And I grew up, like, with Marighella was the name of the revolutionary, the Brazilian — I mean, among others, but Marighella was probably the biggest name. And in 2013, this brilliant journalist called Mário Magalhães released an amazing biography about Marighella, which was a very hard work of journalism, because Marighella was someone who was trying to erase his paths. And he spent 10 years to write this book, and it’s a great book. So, again, I wanted to tell the story of a man who was — who had his history erased by the official Brazilian history. I wanted people to know who Marighella was.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: If you could also respond to some of the controversy that the film generated, with some critics saying that you were glorifying violence, the violence of Marighella? He himself, in the film at some point, says that, you know, some people think the war against the dictatorship can be fought discursively, in language, whereas he believes, rather, an eye for an eye.

WAGNER MOURA: I think there were many different ways to fight the dictatorship. It’s hard to put this — the people that decided to go to the armed resistance, it’s hard to put this with today’s perspective. Let’s remember that back in the '60s, in the entire world, the idea of a revolution of armed — especially after the Cuban Revolution, after Vietnam, people believed that there was a form, a possibility of political change, of social justice. And it's hard for us here — I think it’s not fair for us here to judge how people back then behaved.

And I think that also, when you were under an oppressive regime like under a dictatorship, I believe that people have the right to fight, to fight back. I’m not saying — I’m not saying — I probably would never — I hate guns. I would never be able to do that. But I can see how people that went, that joined the armed struggle thought. And I see lots of — and I have lots of admiration for them. You know, it was a generation of people, like, that have like 16,17, 18, 19 years old, you know, and they dedicated — they gave their lives to a cause, to something that they believed. It’s completely different from my generation. That was something that I was always, like, very moved about. And again, this happened like 50 years ago.

AMY GOODMAN: I don’t think the right’s criticism of Marighella was the same when it came to the Elite Squad, which was about extreme violence.

WAGNER MOURA: Violence, and that was OK, yeah.

AMY GOODMAN: But that was police violence. And explain how it was embraced by the right.

WAGNER MOURA: That’s exactly right. We made this film, Elite Squad, which is a film about police brutality and police corruption, and the far right embraced the film and embraced that violence. That violence, they thought it was totally OK, yeah.

AMY GOODMAN: And explain what the police squad was doing.

WAGNER MOURA: It was torturing and killing. And they were trained. This is the thing about the police in Brazil. The police in Brazil — and when you — and I’m criticizing the institution, the police. I’m not saying that we don’t need the police. The police is important. We need police. Police is a very important part of social security — of public security. But the way the police operates in Brazil historically — and that’s why history is such a fascinating thing, and that’s why the dictatorship left scars, like I said, in our society, because the police in Brazil, especially after the dictatorship, exists not to protect the citizen. The police protects the state. And the state in Brazil chooses who their enemies are, right?

And usually the enemies of the state in Brazil, during a moment where there were revolutionaries, nowadays is people that live in the favelas. You know, that’s where the police goes in there and kill. Like, I think that a year ago, less than a year ago, 120 people were killed by the police in the favela. A hundred and twenty people, just horrible images of bodies, like, on the street. And no one thinks — not only no one thinks this is an absurd, from the upper class and the middle class in Brazil, they applaud that, and they think that this is going to be the solution for public security, which is an issue in Brazil that has to be faced.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: And, Wagner, in the opening — 

WAGNER MOURA: But yeah, so, Elite Squad was a film about that.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: Sorry, Wagner, just to go back to Marighella for a second, just to provide some background context to the dictatorship, you have this explanatory text before the film begins, in which you say not only was the coup supported by a large part of the population, but also politicians, businessmen, etc. So, if you could explain why so many people supported the coup to begin with, and then the critical role played by the United States in supporting the dictatorship, which you highlight in the film?

WAGNER MOURA: It was a critical role. Well, yeah, the United States were — supported all the South American dictatorships, not only in Brazil, all of them, back from — starting with Brazil in ’64, and then Paraguay, Uruguay, Chile. All of them were supported by the CIA. I think that, yeah, especially after the Cuban Revolution, that was a thing that was — really concerned the White House, like, how to keep dominating this region without allowing what they thought, like, the communist or populist leaders to show up.

And our president, the president that was ousted, was far from being a hardcore left-winger. But he was a man who had ideas, like, you know, to share lands, to, like — more like things that Brazil needed. You know, so, of course, the biggest people that are not interested in that was going to be against that, like big businessmen. The press in Brazil, like the big newspapers in Brazil, they all supported the coup d’état.

And by the way, this happened exactly in the same way when Dilma Rousseff was ousted, you know, all this connection, this chain of interests. And we were talking about Brazil is probably the most — one of the most unfair, social unfair countries in the world. The difference between who doesn’t have anything and who has lots of money is huge in Brazil.

And that’s why I still believe that Lula is — with all the criticism that you can have, he is probably the most important president that Brazil has ever had, because he was the only one that — besides this one that was ousted, Jango, he was the only one who was like, “OK, you guys, bankers, you guys are going to still make your money” — this pact that he did — “but let me just do something about these poor people here.” Lula was the first one that decided to do that, to make that difference not that crazy, not that absurd, not that cruel, not that — and I really hope he wins this election again this year.

AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to ask you about Jaws, which has been a theme in several of your both productions, here in Edinburgh, the performance of A Trial — after [An] Enemy of the People, referred to in The Secret Agent. Why is Jaws so significant? Explain what this is all about.

WAGNER MOURA: Because it’s the same plot. I think that Spielberg — I think that Jaws was based on a book, that I don’t know who the writer was, but I’m sure that the writer that wrote that book had read Ibsen’s play, An Enemy of the People, because it’s the same plot. Like, the sheriff discovers that there was a shark eating people. He reports that to the mayor. The mayor says, “Let’s hide this information from everybody.” So, I think that Jaws is half a — is half An Enemy of the People and half Moby-Dick. And yeah, so, that’s the — 

AMY GOODMAN: [inaudible].

WAGNER MOURA: It’s the — the connection is evident. And it’s a big metaphor, I think. Like, how can you hide a shark? You know, how can you — how can you not allow people to know that there is a shark eating people in the — at the beach?

AMY GOODMAN: And also in The Secret Agent.

WAGNER MOURA: And also in The Secret Agent, there’s a shark. But that’s what I was — that’s what I was saying. Like, I when I was doing, I was prepping The Secret Agent and the Trial at the same time, and I was going back and forth and going, “Kleber, you have to read — you have to read Ibsen.” And I was talking to Chris, “Chris, there’s lots of sharks in this.” So, I was — I think that these two characters are very connected. They’re sort of like cousins.

AMY GOODMAN: Do you also see it as the U.S.'s involvement in supporting coups, overthrows, dictators in Latin America, whether we're talking about Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, Chile, Brazil?

WAGNER MOURA: If I would say — sorry — what?

AMY GOODMAN: As the shark — 

WAGNER MOURA: As the shark.

AMY GOODMAN: — as a symbol — 

WAGNER MOURA: As a symbol, yeah.

AMY GOODMAN: — of what the U.S. has done.

WAGNER MOURA: It’s a big — I think it’s a very appropriate symbol. I think so. I think so. And the U.S. is going — is moving really fast to act against Lula in this election, as you know, to support Flávio Bolsonaro. The great things that every — 

AMY GOODMAN: Wait, wait. “To support,” and you sort of swallowed his last name. Flávio —

WAGNER MOURA: Flávio Bolsonaro is Bolsonaro’s —

AMY GOODMAN: — Bolsonaro.

WAGNER MOURA: — Bolsonaro’s son, who is running against Lula, with big chances of winning.

AMY GOODMAN: Why?

WAGNER MOURA: Because the whole world is polarized, Amy. You know, this is hard. Like, the thing that we’re — that interests me most in the play that I’m doing, because there’s so many things, like just the state of democracy, ecological issues — you know, but the thing that for me is very important is the — like I said, is the way we are seeing reality. This is the thing that scares me most nowadays: We don’t see the same realities anymore. People are living in different worlds.

And I think that that’s — for me, that’s the main thing that explains how can someone that’s clearly crooked, like Bolsonaro’s son — and there is another explanation for that. I think that there was — I think the left in Brazil, especially, really disconnected from people. You know, I think that this is the left’s fault. I think we had a big disconnection with this moral imperatives and this — our will to say what’s right, what’s wrong. And we discuss this in the play, too. Like, the guys are like that needs — they need to work. They need to work. And my character goes, like, “Hey, this water is contaminated. We’ll have to — it’s very important that we — that we close the station.” I go, “How am I going to work? I don’t care about your moral imperatives.” And I think that this, this gap between the complexities of the left and what’s going on to people, is also a big problem nowadays, not only in Brazil.

I think the people are — also, the right, they have — they usually have very simple, simplistic answers to very complex questions. And I think that that’s another explanation. We’ll all gather and — because to have a second mandate of a Bolsonaro will be — would be a tragedy, as you guys are experiencing in the U.S.

AMY GOODMAN: It would certainly end Jair Bolsonaro’s term in prison, wouldn’t it?

WAGNER MOURA: Oh, absolutely. If he gets elected, yeah, he would free his father, for sure. Yeah.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: And, Wagner, could you also talk about — which you’ve spoken of earlier — some of the racial dimensions of the violence that endures in Brazil? In speaking about responding to commentary about your film Marighella, you said at the time, quote, “The state-sponsored violence committed against revolutionaries in the 1960s” — which is, of course, what you show in the film — “is the same that is committed in the favelas against Blacks.” If you could talk about that occurring today?

WAGNER MOURA: It is occurring today. It’s been occurring in Brazil for centuries. Like, again, Brazil spent 300 years under slavery. It was more time under slavery than without slavery. So, the marks of that in our daily lives is big. And it’s different from — I think the racism in Brazil is different from racism in the U.S. But both are — both exist, and both are very strong. And if just you can see, like, most of the young people that die from police bullets, I would say — I don’t have the data here, but I would say that 80% are Black people. And that is a fact.

AMY GOODMAN: As we begin to wrap up, you have your — you live in two worlds, in Brazil and in Los Angeles. The parallels you see here, and what you hope in bringing A Trial — after [An] Enemy of the People to the United States next year?

WAGNER MOURA: It’s fascinating, because, I mean, I’ve been touring with the play in very many different countries here in Europe, and it’s fascinating how each country responds differently, even the questions that the jury makes. And it’s great. I’ve been — and I can’t wait to do it in the U.S. I think it’s going to be a very — 

AMY GOODMAN: I mean, when you say even the questions the jury makes, people should understand, in this play, A Trial, what, 12 random — 

WAGNER MOURA: Eleven.

AMY GOODMAN: Eleven random people are chosen from the audience to be the jury on the stage. So, each time, the verdict in this case, whether Stockmann is the enemy of the people, can change.

WAGNER MOURA: Can change. And it’s decided by these — the jury members. And they make me — and they ask me — they ask me question. I improvise — questions. I improvise the answers based on what I think that the character believes.

AMY GOODMAN: And your choice to make it in Portuguese and English? When it’s in Portuguese, we see the translation — 

WAGNER MOURA: Yeah.

AMY GOODMAN: — in English —

WAGNER MOURA: Yeah, and as the — 

AMY GOODMAN: — projected.

WAGNER MOURA: As the questions are improvised, the answers — I have to improvise the answers. Then, we cannot have subtitles, so I answer in English.

AMY GOODMAN: Where do you go next?

WAGNER MOURA: For now, we’re finishing this tour of the play, which was beautiful. Edinburgh is our last stop. Now I’m going to shoot a movie. But hopefully, we’re going to come back with the play next year. I have my film to direct, too. I’m going to direct another film called Last Night at the Lobster, which is a film about a group of employees of a food chain restaurant, that they all get fired a week before Christmas. So, it’s one of those films about labor, but also a film — also a Christmas film.

AMY GOODMAN: And again, it’s called?

WAGNER MOURA: Last Night at the Lobster.

AMY GOODMAN: Do you also make an appearance in it?

WAGNER MOURA: Yes, yes. I’m going to act in this one.

AMY GOODMAN: Wagner Moura, the acclaimed Brazilian actor and filmmaker, nominated for an Oscar for his starring role in The Secret Agent. Here in Edinburgh, he’s starring in the play A Trial — after An Enemy of the People, which will be coming to the United States next year. To see Part 1 of our discussion, go to democracynow.org. I’m Amy Goodman in Edinburgh, with Nermeen Shaikh in New York. This is Democracy Now!